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Author Topic:   Homer In The Baltic summary
rockessence
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Posts: 1000
From: WA USA
Registered: Feb 2004

posted 07-17-2004 01:40     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Friends,

I have quoted from the full text of HOMER IN THE BALTIC by Felice Vince previously, and thought that putting up the summary for your perusal might prove helpful. I and others have put forward the ideas from the Bock saga here, and many have difficulty considering the basis of much that has been proposed. The scholar who takes the time to examine this material can begin to understand the basis of our claims.


"The real scene of the Iliad and the Odyssey can be identified not in the Mediterranean Sea, where it proves to be weakened by many incongruities, but in the north of Europe. The sagas that gave rise to the two poems came from the Baltic regions, where the Bronze Age flourished in the 2nd millennium B. C. and many Homeric places, such as Troy and Ithaca, can still be identified. The blond seafarers who founded the Mycenaean civilization in the 16th century B. C. brought these tales from Scandinavia to Greece after the decline of the "climatic optimum". Then they rebuilt their original world, where the Trojan War and many other mythological events had taken place, in the Mediterranean; through many generations the memory of the heroic age and the feats performed by their ancestors in their lost homeland was preserved, and handed down to the following ages. This key allows us to easily open many doors that have been shut tight until now, as well as to consider the age-old question of the Indo-European diaspora and the origin of the Greek civilization from a new perspective."

HOMER IN THE BALTIC -Summary

(Felice Vinci)

Ever since ancient times, Homeric geography has given rise to problems and uncertainty. The conformity of towns, countries and islands, which the poet often describes with a wealth of detail, with traditional Mediterranean places is usually only partial or even nonexistent. We find various cases in Strabo (the Greek geographer and historian, 63 B. C. - 23 A.D.), who, for example, does not understand why the island of Pharos, situated right in front of the port of Alexandria, in the Odyssey inexplicably appears to lie a day's sail from Egypt. There is also the question of the location of Ithaca, which, according to very precise indications found in the Odyssey, is the westernmost in an archipelago which includes three main islands, Duli****m, Same and Zacynthus. This does not correspond to the geographic reality of the Greek Ithaca in the Ionian Sea, located north of Zacynthus, east of Cephallenia and south of Leucas. And then, what of the Peloponnese, described in both poems as a plain?

In other words, Homeric geography refers to a context with a toponymy with which we are familiar, but which, if compared with the actual physical layout of the Greek world, reveals glaring anomalies, which are hard to explain, if only on account of their consistency throughout the two poems. For example, the "strange" Peloponnese appears to be a plain not sporadically but regularly, and Duli****m, the "Long Island" (in Greek "dolichos" means "long") located by Ithaca, is repeatedly mentioned not only in the Odyssey but also in the Iliad, but was never discovered in the Mediterranean. Thus we are confronted with a world which appears actually closed and inaccessible, apart from some occasional convergences, although the names are familiar (this, however, tends to be more misleading than otherwise in solving the problem).

A possible key to finally penetrating this puzzling world is provided by Plutarch (46 - 120 A.D.). In his work De facie quae in orbe lunae apparet ("The face that appears in the moon circle"), he makes a surprising statement: the island of Ogygia, (where Calypso held Ulysses before allowing him to return to Ithaca) is located in the North Atlantic Ocean, "five days' sail from Britain".

Plutarch's indications lead us to identify Ogygia with one of the Faroe Islands (where we also come across an island with a Greek-sounding name: Mykines), Starting from here, the route eastwards, which Ulysses follows (Book V of the Odyssey) in his voyage from Ogygia to Scheria allows us to locate the latter, i.e. the land of the Phaeacians, on the southern coast of Norway, in an area perfectly fitting the account of his arrival, where archaeological traces of the Bronze Age are plentiful. Moreover, while on the one hand "sker" in Old Norse means a «sea rock», on the other in the narration of Ulysses's landing Homer introduces the reversal of the river current (Od., V, 451-453), which is unknown in the Mediterranean world but is typical of the Atlantic estuaries during high tide.

From here the Phaeacians took Ulysses to Ithaca, located on the far side of an archipelago, which Homer talks about in great detail. At this point, a series of precise parallels makes it possible to identify a group of Danish islands, in the south of the Baltic Sea, which correspond exactly to all of Homer's indications. Actually, the South-Fyn Archipelago includes three main islands: Langeland (the "Long Island"; which finally unveils the puzzle of the mysterious island of Duli****m), Aerø (which corresponds perfectly to Homeric Same) and Tåsinge (ancient Zacynthus). The last island in the archipelago, located westwards, "facing the night", is Ulysses's Ithaca, now known as Lyø. It is astonishing how closely it coincides with the directions of the poet, not only in its position, but also its topographical and morphological features. And here, amongst this group of islands, we can also identify the little island «in the strait between Ithaca and Same», where Penelope's suitors tried to waylay Telemachus.

Moreover, the Elis, i.e. one of the regions of the Peloponnese, is described as facing Duli****m, thus is easily identifiable with a part of the large Danish island of Zealand. Therefore, the latter is the original «Peloponnese», i.e. the "Island of Pelops", in the real meaning of the word "island" ("nêsos" in Greek). On the other hand, the Greek Peloponnese (which lies in a similar position in the Aegean Sea, i.e. on its southwestern side) is not an island, despite its name. Furthermore, the details reported in the Odyssey regarding both Telemachus's swift journey by chariot from Pylos to Lacedaemon, along «a wheat-producing plain», and the war between Pylians and Epeans, as narrated in Book XI of the Iliad, have always been considered inconsistent with Greece's uneven geography, while they fit in perfectly with the flat island of Zealand.

Let us look for the region of Troy now. In the Iliad it is located along the Hellespont Sea, which is systematically described as being «wide» or even «boundless». We can, therefore, exclude the fact that it refers to the Strait of the Dardanelles, where the city found by Schliemann lies. The identification of this city with Homer's Troy still raises strong doubts: we only have to think of Finley's criticism in the World of Odysseus. It is also remarkable that Schliemann's site corresponds to the location of the Greek-Roman Troy; however, Strabo categorically denies that the latter is identifiable with the Homeric city (Geography 13, 1, 27). On the other hand, the Danish Medieval historian Saxo Grammaticus, in his Gesta Danorum, often mentions a population known as «Hellespontians» and a region called Hellespont, which, strangely enough, seems to be located in the east of the Baltic Sea. Could it be Homer's Hellespont? We can identify it with the Gulf of Finland, which is the geographic counterpart of the Dardanelles (as both of them lie northeast of their respective basins). Since Troy, as we can infer from a passage in the Iliad (XXI, 334-335), lay North-East of the sea (further reason to dispute Schliemann's location), then it seems reasonable, for the purpose of this research, to look at a region of southern Finland, where the Gulf of Finland joins the Baltic Sea. In this area, west of Helsinki, we find a number of name-places which astonishingly resemble those mentioned in the Iliad and, in particular, those given to the allies of the Trojans: Askainen (Ascanius), Karjaa (Caria), Nästi (Nastes, the chief of the Carians), Lyökki (Lycia), Tenala (Tenedos), Kiila (Cilla), Raisio (Rhesus), Kiikoinen (the Ciconians) etc. There is also a Padva, which reminds us of Italian Padua, which was founded, according to tradition, by the Trojan Antenor and lies in Venetia (the «Eneti» or «Veneti» were allies of the Trojans). What is more, the place-names Tanttala and Sipilä (the mythical King Tantalus, famous for his torment, was buried on Mount Sipylus) indicate that this matter is not only limited to Homeric geography, but seems to extend to the whole world of Greek mythology.

What about Troy? Right in the middle of this area, halfway between Helsinki and Turku, we discover that King Priam's city has survived the Achaean sack and fire. Its characteristics correspond exactly to those Homer handed down to us: the hilly area which dominates the valley with its two rivers, the plain which slopes down towards the coast, and the highlands in the background. It has even maintained its own name almost unchanged throughout all this time. Today, Toija is a peaceful Finnish village, unaware of its glorious and tragic past.

Various trips to these places, from July 11 1992 onwards, have confirmed the extraordinary correspondence between the Iliad's descriptions and the area surrounding Toija. What is more, there we come across many significant traces of the Bronze Age. Incredibly, towards the sea we find a place called Aijala, which recalls the "beach" («aigialos»), where, according to Homer, the Achaeans beached their ships (Il., XIV, 34). The correspondence extends to the neighbouring areas. For example, along the Swedish coast facing Southern Finland, 70 km north of Stockholm, the long and relatively narrow Bay of Norrtälje recalls Homeric Aulis, whence the Achaean fleet set sail for Troy. Nowadays, ferries leave here for Finland, following the same ancient course. They pass the island of Lemland, whose name reminds us of ancient Lemnos, where the Achaeans stopped and abandoned the hero Philoctetes. Nearby is Åland, the largest island of the homonymous archipelago, which probably coincides with Samothrace, the mythical site of the metalworking mysteries. The adjacent Gulf of Bothnia is easily identifiable with Homer's Thracian Sea, and the ancient Thrace, which the poet places to the North-West of Troy on the opposite side of the sea, probably lay along the northern Swedish coast and its hinterland (it is remarkable that the Younger Edda identifies the home of the god Thor with Thrace). Further south, outside the Gulf of Finland, the island of Hiiumaa, situated opposite the Esthonian coast, corresponds exactly to Homer's Chios, which, according to the Odyssey, lay on the return course of the Achaean fleet after the war.

In short, apart from the morphological features of this area, the geographic position of the Finnish Troas fits Homer's directions like a glove. Actually, this explains why a «thick fog» often fell on those fighting on the Trojan plain, and Ulysses's sea is never as bright as that of the Greek islands, but always «dark-wine» and «misty». As we travel through Homer's world, we experience the harsh weather which is typical of the Northern world. Everywhere in the two poems the weather, with its fog, wind, rain, cold temperatures and snow (which falls on the plains and even out to sea), has little in common with the Mediterranean climate; moreover, sun and warm temperatures are hardly ever mentioned.
There are countless examples of this; for instance, when Ulysses recalls an episode of the Trojan War:

«The night was bad, after the north wind dropped,
and freezing; then the snow began to fall like icy frost
and ice congealed on our shields» (Od., XIV, 475-477).

In a word, most of the time the weather is unsettled, so much so that a bronze-clad fighting warrior invokes a cloudless sky during the battle (Il., XVII, 643-646). We are worlds away from the torrid Anatolian lowlands. The way in which Homer's characters are dressed is in perfect keeping with this kind of climate. In the sailing season they wear tunics and heavy cloaks which they never remove, not even during banquets. This attire corresponds exactly to the remains of clothing found in Bronze Age Danish graves, down to such details as the metal brooch which pinned the cloak at the shoulder (Od., XIX, 226). Moreover, this fits in perfectly with what Tacitus states on Germanic clothing:

«The suit for everyone is a cape with a buckle»
(«sagum fibula consertum»; Germania, 17, 1).

This northern collocation also explains the huge anomaly of the great battle which takes up the central books of the Iliad. The battle continues for two days (Il., XI, 86; XVI, 777) and one night (Il., XVI, 567). The fact that the darkness does not put a stop to the fighting is incomprehensible in the Mediterranean world, but it becomes clear in the Baltic setting. What allows Patroclus's fresh troops to carry on fighting through to the following day, without a break, is the faint night light, which is typical of high latitudes during the summer solstice. This interpretation -corroborated by the overflowing of the Scamander during the following battle (in the northern regions this occurs in May or June owing to the thaw)- allows us to reconstruct the stages of the whole battle in a coherent manner, dispelling the present-day perplexities and strained interpretations. Furthermore, we even manage to pick out from a passage in the Iliad (VII, 433) the Greek word used to denominate the faintly-lit nights typical of the regions located near the Arctic Circle: the «amphilyke nyx» is a real "linguistic fossil" which, thanks to the Homeric epos, has survived the migration of the Achaeans to Southern Europe.

It is also important to note that the Trojan walls, as described by Homer, appear as a sort of rustic fence made of wood and stone, similar to the archaic Northern wooden enclosures (such as the Kremlin Walls up to the 15th century) much more than the mighty strongholds of the Aegean civilizations.

Troy, therefore, was not deserted after the Achaeans plundered and burnt it down, but was rebuilt, as the Iliad states:

«At this point Zeus has come to hate Priam's stock,
so Aeneas's power will rule the Trojans now
and then his children's children and those who will come later on» (Il., XX, 306-308).

On the contrary, Virgil's quite tendentious, and much more recent, tale of Aeneas's flight by sea from the burning city of Troy (a homage paid to the emperor Augustus's family, considered Aeneas's descendant) is absolutely unrelated to the real destiny of the Trojan hero and his city after the war. As regards this "Finnish" Aeneas, the first king of the dynasty that, according with Homer, ruled Troy after the war (that is a kingdom which, under Priam, dominated a vast area in southern Finland; Il., XXIV, 544-546) it should be very tempting to suppose a relationship between his name and «Aeningia», Finland's name in Roman times (Pliny, Natural History, IV, 96).

It is remarkable that farmers often come across Bronze and Stone Age relics in the fields surrounding Toija. This is proof of human settlements in this territory many thousands of years ago. Further, in the area surrounding Salo (only 20 km from Toija), archaeologists have found splendid specimens of swords and spear points that date back to the Bronze Age and are now on display in the National Museum of Helsinki. These findings come from burial places, which include tumuli made of large mounds of stones that can be found at the top of certain hills, which rise from the plain today, but which, thousands of years ago, when the coastline was not as far back as it is nowadays, faced directly onto the sea. This relates to a passage in the Iliad, where Hector challenges an Achaean hero to a duel, undertaking, in case of victory, to give back the corpse of his opponent

«so that the long-haired Achaeans can bury him
and erect a mound for him on the broad Hellespont,
and some day one of the men to come,
sailing with a multioared ship on the wine-dark sea, will say:
"This is the mound of a man slain in ancient times,
he excelled but renowned Hector killed him"»
(Il., VII, 85-90; the description of Achilles' tomb in the last canto of the Odyssey is analogous).

These Homeric mounds «on the broad Hellespont» and the Bronze Age ones near Salo are remarkably similar.

Let us now examine the so-called Catalogue of Ships from Book II of the Iliad, that lists the twenty-nine Achaean fleets which took part in the Trojan War, together with the names of their captains and places of origin. This list unwinds in an anticlockwise direction, starting from Central Sweden, travelling along the Baltic coasts and finishing in Finland. If we combine this with the data contained in the two poems and in the rest of Greek mythology, we may completely reconstruct the Achaean world around the Baltic Sea, where, as archaeology confirms, the Bronze Age was flourishing in the 2nd millennium B. C., favoured by a warmer climate than today's.

In this new geographical context, the entire universe belonging to Homer and Greek mythology finally discloses itself with its astonishing consistency. For example, by following the Catalogue sequence, we immediately locate Boeotia (corresponding to the area around Stockholm). Here it is easy to identify Oedipus's Thebes and the mythical Mount Nysa (which was never found in the Greek world), where the Hyads nursed baby Dionysus. Homer's Euboea coincides with today's island of Öland, located off the Swedish coast in a similar position to that of its Mediterranean counterpart. Mythical Athens, Theseus's native land, lay in the area of present day Karlskrona in southern Sweden (this explains why Plato, in his dialogue Critias, refers to it as being an undulating plain full of rivers, which is totally alien to Greece's rough morphology). The features of other Achaean cities, such as Mycenae or Calydon, as described by Homer also appear completely different from those of their namesakes on Greek soil. In particular, Mycenae lay in the site of today's Copenhagen, where the island of Amager possibly recalls its ancient name and explains why it was in the plural. Here, in the flat island of Zealand (i.e. the Homeric «Peloponnese»), we can easily identify Agamemnon's and Menelaus's kingdoms, Arcadia, the River Alpheus, and in particular, king Nestor's Pylos, whose location was held to be a mystery even by the ancient Greeks. By setting Homer's poems in the Baltic, this age-old puzzle is also solved at once. What is more, it is equally easy to solve the problem of the strange border between Argolis and Pylos, which is mentioned in the Iliad (IX, 153) but is "impossible" in the Greek world. After the Peloponnese, the Catalogue mentions Duli****m and continues with Ithaca's archipelago, which was already identified by making use of the indications the Odyssey supplies. We are thus able to verify the consistency of the information contained in the two poems as well as their congruity with the Baltic geography. After Ithaca, the list continues with the Aetolians, who recall the ancient Jutes. They gave their name to Jutland, which actually lies near the South-Fyn Islands. Homer mentions Pylene in the Aetolian cities, which corresponds to today's Plön, in Northern Germany, not far from Jutland. Opposite this region, in the North Sea, the name of Heligoland, one of the North Frisian Islands, recalls Helike, a sanctuary of the god Poseidon mentioned in the Iliad (it is remarkable that an old name for Heligoland was Fositesland, where «Fosite», an ancient Frisian god, is virtually identical to Poseidon).

As regards Crete, the «vast land» with «a hundred cities» and many rivers, which is never referred to as an island by Homer, it corresponds to the Pomeranian region in the southern Baltic area, which stretches from the German coast to the Polish same. This explains why in the rich pictorial productions of the Minoan civilization, which flourished in Aegean Crete, we find no hint of Greek mythology, and ships are so scantily represented. It would also be tempting to assume a relationship between the name «Polska» and the Pelasgians, the inhabitants of Homeric Crete. At this point, it is also easy to identify Naxos (where Theseus left Ariadne on his return journey from «Crete» to «Athens») with the island of Bornholm, situated between Poland and Sweden, where the town of Neksø still recalls the ancient name of the island. Likewise, we discover that the Odyssey's «River Egypt» probably coincides with the present-day Vistula, thus revealing the real origin of the name the Greeks gave to Pharaohs' land, known as «Kem» in the local language. This explains the incongruous position of the Homeric Egyptian Thebes, which, according to the Odyssey, is located near the sea. Evidently the Egyptian capital, which on the contrary lies hundreds of kilometres from the Nile delta and was originally known as Wò'se, was renamed by the Achaeans with the name of a Baltic city, after they moved down to the Mediterranean. The real Thebes probably was the present-day Tczew, on the Vistula delta. To the north of the latter, in the centre of the Baltic Sea, the island of Fårö recalls the Homeric Pharos, which according to the Odyssey lay in the middle of the sea at a day's sail from «Egypt» (whereas Mediterranean Pharos is not even a mile's distance from the port of Alexandria). Here is the solution to another puzzle of Homeric geography that so perturbed Strabo.

The Catalogue of Ships now touches the Baltic Republics. Hellas lay on the coast of present-day Esthonia, and thus next to the Homeric Hellespont (i.e. the «Helle Sea»), today's Gulf of Finland. In this area also lies Kurland -the Curians' country, that is the mythical Curetes, linked with the worship of Zeus- where is found the figure of a supreme god, who is called Dievas in Lithuania and Dievs in Latvia; in local folklore he shows features typical of Hellenic Zeus (the genitive case of the name «Zeus» in Greek is «Diòs»; Il., I, 5). Moreover, Lithuanian has very archaic features and a notable affinity with the ancient Indo-European language. Phthia, Achilles's homeland, lay on the fertile hills of southeastern Esthonia, along the border with Latvia and Russia, stretching as far as the Russian river Velikaja and the lake of Pskov. Myrmidons and Phthians lived there, ruled by Achilles and Protesilaus (the first Achaean captain who fell in the Trojan War) respectively. Next, proceeding with the sequence, we reach the Finnish coast, facing the Gulf of Bothnia, where we find Jolkka, which reminds us of Iolcus, Jason's mythical city. Further north, we are also able to identify the region of Olympus, Styx and Pieria in Finnish Lapland (which in turn recalls the Homeric Lapithae, i.e. the sworn enemies of the Centaurs who also lived in this area). This location of Pieria north of the Arctic Circle is confirmed by an apparent astronomical anomaly, linked to the moon cycle, which is found in the Homeric Hymn to Hermes: it can only be explained by the high latitude. The «Home of Hades» was even further northwards, on the icy coasts of Russian Karelia: here Ulysses arrived, his journeys representing the last vestige of prehistoric routes in an era which was characterised by a very different climate from today's.

In conclusion, from this review of the Baltic world, we find its astonishing consistency with the Catalogue of Ships -which is, therefore, an extraordinary "photograph" of the Northern Early Bronze Age peoples- as well as with the whole of Greek mythology. It is very unlikely that this immense number of geographic, climatic, toponymical and morphological parallels is to be ascribed to mere chance, even leaving aside the glaring contradictions arising from the Mediterranean setting.

As regards Ulysses' trips, after the Trojan War, when he is about to reach Ithaca, a storm takes him away from his world; so he has many adventures in fabulous localities until he reaches Ogygia, that is one of the Faroe Islands. These adventures, presumably taken from tales of ancient seamen and elaborated again by the poet's fantasy, represent the last memory of the sea routes followed by the ancient navigators of the Northern Bronze Age out of the Baltic, in the North Atlantic (where the «Ocean River» flows, i.e. the Gulf Stream), but they became unrecognizable because of their transposition into a totally different context. For example, the Eolian island, ruled by the «King of the winds», «son of the Knight», is one of the Shetlands (maybe Yell), where there are strong winds and ponies. Cyclops lived in the coast of Norway (near Tosenfjorden: the name of their mother is Toosa): they coincide with the Trolls of the Norwegian folklore. The land of Lestrigonians was in the same coast, towards the North; Homer says that there the days are very long (the famous scholar Robert Graves places the Lestrigonians in the North of Norway; moreover, in that area we find the island of Lamøj, which is probably the Homeric Lamos). The island of sorceress Circe -where there are clear hints at the midnight sun (Od., X, 190-192) and the revolving dawns (Od., XII, 3-4), typical phenomena of the Arctic regions- is one of the Lofoten, beyond the Arctic Circle. Charybdis is the well-known whirlpool named Maelstrom, south of the island of Moskenes (one of the Lofoten). South of Charybdis Odysseus meets the island Thrinakia, that means «trident»: really, near the Maelstrom lies Mosken, a three-tip island. The Sirens are shoals and shallows, off the western face of the Lofoten, before the Maelstrom area, which are made even more dangerous by the fog and the size of the tides. The sailors could be attracted by the misleading noise of the backwash (the «Sirens' Song» is a metaphor similar to Norse «kenningar») on the half-hidden rocks into deceiving themselves that landing is at hand, but if they get near, shipwreck on the reefs is inevitable.

Besides, we can find remarkable parallels between Greek and Norse mythology: for example, Ulysses is similar to Ull, archer and warrior of Norse mythology; the sea giant Aegaeon (who gave his name to the Aegean Sea) is the counterpart of the Norse sea god Aegir, and Proteus, the Old Man of the Sea (who is a mythical shepherd of seals, who lives in the sea depths and is capable of foretelling the future) is similar to the «marmendill» (mentioned by the Hàlfs Saga ok Hàlfsrekka and the Landnàmabòk), a very odd creature, who resembles a misshapen man with a seal-shaped body below the waist, and has the gift of prophecy but only talks when he feels like it, just like Proteus. On the other hand, there are remarkable analogies between the Achaean and Viking ships: by comparing the details of Homeric ships with the remains of Viking ships found in the bay of Roskilde, we realize that their features were very similar. We refer to the flat keel (one infers this from Od., XIII, 114), the double prow (we can deduce this from the expression «amphiélissai» Homer frequently uses with regard to their double curve, i.e. at the stern and the prow), and the removable mast -this is a sophisticated feature typical of Viking ships, which was typical of Homeric ships, too: many passages in both the Iliad (I, 434; I, 480) and the Odyssey (II, 424-425; VIII, 52) confirm without a shadow of doubt that the operations of setting up and taking down the mast were customary at the beginning and the end of each mission.

More generally speaking, apart from the respective mythologies, remarkable parallels are found between the customs of the Achaeans and those of the populations of Northern Europe, although they are separated by almost 3000 years. The systems of social relations, interests and lifestyles of the Homeric world and Viking society, despite the elapsed years, are surprisingly similar. For instance, the «agorà», the public assembly in the Homeric world, corresponds to the «thing» of the Vikings: this was the most important political moment in the running of the community for both peoples. In his turn, Tacitus informs us that at his time the northern populations held public assemblies (Germania, chap. 11), that appear to be very similar to the «thing» (therefore, to the «agorà», too). In a word, the parallels between the Homeric Achaeans, who lived during the Bronze Age, the Germans of the Roman period, and the Medieval Vikings testify to the continuity of the Northern world throughout the ages.

We should note that many Homeric peoples, as the Danaans, Pelasgians, Dorians, Curetes, Lybians and Lapithae, whose traces are not found in the Mediterranean, probably still exist in the Baltic world: they find their present counterparts in the Danes, Poles, Thuringians, Kurlandians, Livonians and Lapps (this identification is supported by their respective geographic locations). Moreover, both poems mention the Sintians, mythical inhabitants of Lemnos who were linked with the smith god Hephaestus (Il., I, 594; Od., VIII, 294): their name is exactly the same as today's Sintians, i.e. a tribe of Gypsies', who traditionally are metalworkers and coppersmiths. We also note a possible relationship between the «Argives», another name for the Achaeans, «Argeioi» in Greek -i.e. (V)argeioi, considering the usual loss of the initial V (the «digamma») in the Homeric language- and the "Varangians" (Swedish Vikings).
As regards the Homeric Danaans («Dànaioi» in Greek, who were also Achaeans), at the beginning of the Gesta Danorum, Saxo Grammaticus states that «Dudon, who wrote a story about Aquitania, believes that the Danes owe their origins and name to the Danaans» (I, I, 1). This comparison has hitherto been interpreted as a means of exalting the origin of the Danes, but now one could start to see them in a new light. If we still dwell upon the digamma, we should consider now the relationship between the Greek words «areté» (valour) and «àte» (fault or error) and their Latin counterparts «virtus» and «vitium» respectively (apart from the initial V, the vowels A and I are often interchangeable: for example, «ambush» corresponds to the Italian «imboscata»). By applying the same alteration (i.e. A→VI) to the name of the Achaeans («Achaioi» in Greek), we get the word "Vikings". In a word, Argeioi, Danaioi, and Achaioi, i.e. the three main names Homer gives the peoples comprising the protagonists of his poems, possibly came down to modern times as Varangians, Danes, and Vikings (never found in the Mediterranean area, even in ancient times) respectively.

Here, therefore, is the "secret" which is hidden inside Homer's poems and is responsible for all the oddities of Homeric geography: the Trojan War and the other events Greek mythology handed down were not set in the Mediterranean, but in the Baltic area, i.e. the primitive home of the blond, «long-haired» Achaeans (the Odyssey claims that Ulysses was fair-haired; XIII, 399; XIII, 431). On this subject, the distinguished Swedish scholar, Professor Martin P. Nilsson, in his works reports considerable archaeological evidence uncovered in the Mycenaean sites in Greece, corroborating their northern origin. Some examples are: the existence of a large quantity of baltic amber in the most ancient Mycenaean tombs in Greece (which is not to be ascribed to trade, because the amber is very scarce in the coeval Minoan tombs in Crete as well as in later graves on the continent); the typically Northern features of their architecture (the Mycenaean megaron is identical to the hall of the ancient Scandinavian Kings); the similarity of two stone slabs found in a tomb in Dendra with the menhirs known from the Bronze Age of Central Europe; the Northern-type skulls found in the necropolis of Kalkani, etc.. Moreover, Aegean art and Scandinavian remains dating back to the Bronze Age present a remarkable affinity -for example, the figures engraved on Kivik's tomb in Sweden- so much so that a 19th century scholar suggested the monument was built by the Phoenicians.

Another sign of the Achaean presence in the Northern world in a very distant past is a Mycenaean graffito found in the megalithic complex of Stonehenge in Southern England. Other remains revealing the Mycenaean influence were found in the same area ("Wessex culture"), which date back to a period preceding the Mycenaean civilization in Greece. A trace of contact is found in the Odyssey, which mentions a market for bronze placed overseas, in a foreign country, named «Temese», never found in the Mediterranean area. Since bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, which in the North is only found in Cornwall, it is very likely that the mysterious Temese corresponds to the Thames, named «Tamesis» or «Tamensim» in ancient times. So, following Homer, we learn that, during the Bronze Age, the ancient Scandinavians used to sail to Temese-Thames, «placed overseas in a foreign country», to supply themselves with bronze.

This theory -which has already undergone a positive check by means of inspections carried out on the territories concerned, and meets Popper's requirement on "falsifiability"- solves many other problems, such as the backwardness of the Homeric civilization compared to the Mycenaeans'; the absence of reference to seafaring and Greek mythology in the Minoan-Cretan world; the inconsistencies between the morphology of several Homeric cities, such as Mycenae and Calydon, and their Greek namesakes; the absurdities concerning the regions of the Peloponnese, and the distance of the allies of the Trojans from the Dardanelles area, and so on. We should also note that oxen are of the utmost importance in the Homeric world: this is the yet further evidence that we are not dealing with a Greek setting, undoubtedly more suitable for goats than oxen, but with a Northern one. Moreover, in a Greek environment one would expect a surfeit of pottery, but this is not the case: in both poems tableware is made solely of metal or wood, while pottery is absent. The poet talks of metal vases, usually of gold or silver.
For example, in Ulysses's palace in Ithaca,

«a maid came to pour water from a beautiful
golden jug into a silver basin» (Od., I, 136-137).

People poured wine «into gold goblets» (Od., III, 472) and «gold glasses» (Od., I, 142). Lamps (Od., XIX, 34), cruets (Od., VI, 79) and urns, like the one (Il., XXIII, 253) containing Patroclus's bones, were made of gold. The vessels used for pouring wine were also of metal: when one of them fell to the ground, instead of breaking, it «boomed» (Od., XVIII, 397). In a word, on the one hand, the Homeric poems do not mention any ceramic pottery, which is typical of the Mediterranean world, but, on the other, they are strikingly congruent with the Northern world, where scholars find a stable and highly advanced bronze founding industry, compared to the pottery one, which was far more modest. As to the poor, they used wooden jugs (Od., IX, 346; XVI, 52), i.e. the cheapest and most natural form of vessel, considering the abundance of this material in the North: Esthonia and Latvia have a very ancient tradition of wooden beer tankards.

Therefore, it was along the Baltic coast that Homer's events took place, before the Mycenaean migration southwards, in the 16th century B. C.. This period is close to the end of an exceptionally hot climate that had lasted several thousands of years, the "post-glacial climatic optimum". It corresponds to the Atlantic phase of the Holocene, when temperatures in northern Europe were much higher than today (at that time the broad-leaved forests reached the Arctic Circle and the tundra disappeared even from the northernmost areas of Europe). The "climatic optimum" reached its peak around 2500 B. C. and began to drop around 2000 B. C. ("Sub-Boreal phase"), until it came to an end some centuries later. It is highly likely that this was the cause that obliged the Achaeans to move down to the Mediterranean for this reason. They probably followed the Dnieper river down to the Black Sea, as the Vikings (whose culture is, in many ways, quite similar) did many centuries later. The Mycenaean civilisation, which did not originate in Greece, was thus born and went on to flourish from the 16th century B. C., soon after the change in North European climate.

The migrants took their epos and geography along with them and attributed the same names they had left behind in their lost homeland to the various places where they eventually settled. This heritage was immortalized by the Homeric poems and Greek mythology (the latter lost the memory of the great migration from the North probably after the collapse of the Mycenaean civilization, around the 12th century B. C., but kept a vague memory of its "hyperborean" links). Moreover, they renamed with Baltic names not only the new countries where they settled, but also other Mediterranean regions, such as Libya, Crete and Egypt, thus creating an enormous "geographical misunderstanding" which has lasted until now. The above-mentioned transpositions of Northern place-names were certainly encouraged, if not suggested, by a certain similarity (which the Mycenaeans realized owing to their inclination for seafaring) between Baltic geography and that of the Aegean: we only have to think of the analogy Öland-Euboea or Zealand-Peloponnese (where they were obliged to force the concept of island in order to maintain the original layout). The increasing presence of Greek-speaking populations in the Mediterranean basin, with their cultural and trade supremacy, later consolidated this phenomenon, from the time of Mycenaean civilization to the Hellenistic-Roman period.

In short, besides the geographic correspondences, in favour of this theory there is the remarkable temporal concurrence between the end of the "climatic optimum" in northern Europe and the settling of the Mycenaeans in the Aegean area. We should also note that a catastrophic event happened at that time: we refer to the eruption of the volcano of Thera (Santorini), around the year 1630 B. C., which presumably extinguished the Minoan civilization in Crete and certainly had severe climatic consequences worldwide (traces of it were found even in the annual rings of very ancient American trees), giving rise to atmospheric phenomena which must have terrorized the Bronze Age civilizations in Northern Europe. If we consider that the "optimum" had begun to decline some centuries before, this event probably started, or quickened, the final collapse.

This is the same age as the arising of Aryan, Hyksos, Hittite and Cassite settlements in India, Egypt, Anatolia and Mesopotamia respectively. In a word, the end of the "climatic optimum" can explain the cause of the contemporary migrations of other Indo-European populations (following a recent research carried on by Prof. Jahanshah Derakhshani of Teheran University, the Hyksos very likely belong to the Indo-European family). The original homeland of the Indo-Europeans was probably located in the furthest north of Europe, when the climate was much warmer than today's. However, on the one hand G. B. Tilak in The Arctic home of the Vedas claims the Arctic origin of the Aryans, "cousins" of the Achaeans, on the other both Iranian and Norse mythology remember that the original homeland was destroyed by cold and ice. It is also remarkable that, following Tilak (The Orion), the original Aryan civilization flourished in the «Orionic period», when the constellation of Orion marked the spring equinox. It happened in the period from 4000 up to 2500 B. C., corresponding to the peak of the "climatic optimum".
We also note the presence of a population known as the Tocharians in the Tarim Basin (northwest China) from the beginning of the 2nd millennium B. C. They spoke an Indo-European language and were tall, blond with Caucasian features. This dating provides us with yet another confirmation of the close relationship between the decline of the "climatic optimum" and the Indo-European diaspora from Scandinavia and other Northern regions. In this picture, it is amazing that the Bronze Age starts in China just between the 18th and the 16th centuries B. C. (Shang dynasty). We should note that the Chinese pictograph indicating the king is called «wang», which is very similar to the Homeric term «anax», i.e. "the king" (corresponding to «wanax» in Mycenaean Linear B tablets).
On the other hand, the terms «Yin» and «Yang» (which express two complementary principles of Chinese philosophy: Yin is feminine, Yang masculine) could be compared with the Greek roots «gyn-» and «andr-» respectively, which also refer to the "woman" and the "man" («anér edé gyné», "man and woman", Od., VI, 184). Moreover, it is no accident that in this period the Steppe peoples -the Scythians, as the Greeks used to call them- who were blond or red-haired, flourished in the area where the Volga and the Dnieper run, the rivers that played such an important role as trade and transit routes between north and south. A passage from Herodotus about the origin of the Scythians corroborates this picture:

«They say that 1000 years elapsed from their origin and their first king Targitaos to Darius's expedition against them» (History, IV, 7).

As this expedition dates back to 514 B. C., their origin would thus date back to the 16th century B. C., i.e. the epoch of the Mycenaean migration. One could venture to include in this picture the Olmecs also. They seem to have reached the southern Gulf Coast of Mexico in about the same period; thus, one could infer that they were a population who had formerly lived in the extreme north of the Americas (being connected to the Indo-European civilization through the Arctic Ocean, which was not frozen at that time), and then moved to the South when the climate collapsed (this, of course, could help to explain certain similarities with the Old World, apart from other possible contacts).

Returning to Homer, this reconstruction not only explains the extraordinary consistency between the Baltic-Scandinavian context and Homer's world (compared to all the contradictions, over which the ancient Greek scholars racked their brains in vain, arising when one tries to place the Homeric geography in the Mediterranean), but also clarifies why the latter was decidedly more archaic than the Mycenaean civilization. Evidently, the contact with the refined Mediterranean and Eastern cultures favoured its rapid evolution, also considering their marked inclination for trade and seafaring which pervades not only the Homeric poems, but also all Greek mythology. Furthermore, this thesis fits in very well with the strong seafaring characterisation of the Mycenaeans. As a matter of fact, archaeologists confirm that the latter had been intensely practicing seafaring from their settling in Greece (their trade stations are found in many Mediterranean shores). Therefore, they had inherited a tradition dating back to a long time before, which implies that their original land lay near the sea. Further, the northern features of their architecture and their own physical traits fit in perfectly with the parallels between Homeric and Norse myths, which not only possess extremely archaic features, but also are of an undeniably seafaring nature. This is hard to explain with the current hypotheses about the continental origin of the Indo-Europeans, whereas the remains found in England fit in very well with the idea of a previous coastal homeland (by associating this with the typically northern features of their architecture we remove any doubt as to their place of origin).

Many signs prove the antiquity of the two poems and their temporal incongruity with Greek culture (this also explains why any reliable information regarding the author, or authors, of the poems had been lost before classical times), showing that they in fact belong to a "barbaric" European civilization, very far from the Aegean, as has been noticed by authoritative scholars, such as Prof. Stuart Piggott in his Ancient Europe. Moreover, Radiocarbon dating, corrected with dendrochronology (i.e. tree-ring calibration) has recently questioned the dogma of the Eastern origin of European civilization. Prof. Colin Renfrew describes the consequences for traditional chronology:

«These changes bring with them a whole series of alarming reversals in chronological relationships. The megalithic tombs of western Europe now become older than the Pyramids or the round tombs of Crete, their supposed predecessors. The early metal-using cultures of the Balkans antedate Troy and the early bronze age Aegean, from which they were supposedly derived. And in Britain, the final structure of Stonehenge, once thought to be the inspiration of Mycenaean architectural expertise, was complete well before the Mycenaean civilization began» (Before civilization, the radiocarbon revolution and prehistoric Europe, chap. 4, "The Tree-ring Calibration of Radiocarbon").

Consequently, Prof. Renfrew goes so far as to say:

«The whole carefully constructed edifice comes crashing down, and the story-line of the standard textbooks must be discarded» (Before civilization, chap. 5, "The Collapse of the Traditional Framework").

To conclude, this key could allow us to easily open many doors that have been shut tight until now, as well as to consider the age-old question of the Indo-European diaspora from a new perspective.

Dr. Felice Vinci
Via Cola di Rienzo 180
00192 Rom (Italien)
Telefon: ++39.06.6877696 oder ++39.06.83040321;
E-mail: vinci@sogin.it

english original text at http://www.jesus1053.com/l2-wahl/l2-autoren/l3-spedicato/Homer-Balt.htm

vinci@sogin.it is not my e-mail address any longer. My new address is:

felicevinci@tiscali.it

Please send your message there. Thank you.

Felice Vinci


[This message has been edited by rockessence (edited 11-30-2004).]

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Essan
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posted 07-17-2004 03:36     Click Here to See the Profile for Essan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Only point I'd like to make on this subject is that the celtic peoples of Britain often transferred the locations of their heroic tales to wherever they were living at the time. Thus, tales which had their origins in Ireland would later become associated with the Scottish Highlands (Fingal). A better known example is King Arthur: who is associated with almost every corner of Britain. Not because he actually fought in these areas, but becuase when tales of his endeavours were retold decades or centuries later, the poeple listening wanted their local hill to be the hill in the tale, their local wood to be the wood in the tale: not places hundreds of miles away which they neither knew of nor cared about.

The point being that just because a heroic tale is associated with a particular place today, does not necessarily mean that that is where it originally took place.

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rockessence
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posted 07-19-2004 20:19     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you Essan..

I have just been reading this about the "Moon of Hermes" from HOMER IN THE BALTIC:

"In one of the HOMERIC HYMNS (a collection of poems of different origins, which the ancients ascribe to Homer), we find a signal indicating both that the Homeric Pieria lay in what is now Lapland, and that the original Achaean homeland was situated at very northern latitudes.

The HOMERIC HYMN TO HERMES tells of the birth of this god in a dark cave and of his first nocturnal feat. On the fourth day of the lunar month, towards the end of the night, the new-born baby goes to Pieria and steals fifty cattle from Apollo's herd, 'in the moonlight'.

In the opinion of scholars, this tale is "impossible" from an astronomical point of view: "On the fourth day of the lunar month, the divine Selene certainly does not shine until the end of the night approaches. Her crescent, which is still very slight, disappears very quickly beneath the horizon and only casts a very dim light." (C. Robert, "Notice" introductory to the HYMNS).

However, if one moves beyond the Polar Circle, the phases of the moon have a very different appearance. Were we exactly at the pole during the winter solstice, we would be able to watch the moon shine uninteruptedly for 14 days. As a matter of fact, the moon rises when it is already at the end of its first quarter, i.e. as a half-circle, and starts to trace a circlar trajectory above the horizon ( without setting, of course), waxing and rising up in the night solstice along a spiral path, until it reaches its maximum height a week later, in correspondance with the full moon.

After this, it starts to get smaller and descends towards the horizon, describing again a spiral trajectory, until it sets at the end of the folloeing week (we would like to leave to the reader the pleasure of reconstructing the equally interesting summer solstice phases, which, however, are not relevant to this HYMN).

This phenomenon is also verified at other points , within the Arctic Circle, although it becomes less marked as one moves further away from the Pole. At this point, if we consider the myth at issue is set in Pieria- i.e. in northern Finland- the astronomical anomaly of the HYMN TO HERMES is easily explained. The new moon, in the 4th day of its cycle, actually shines in the darkness of the solstice night, thus lighting up the plain from which Hermes steals the cows with its arcane radiance, in an unreal Arctic scenery: "(Hermes)...put out the embers and covered the black cinders with sand/ in the last hours of the night; Selene's beautiful light was shining up above"

Therefor, this extraordinary "literary fossil" certifies the Achaean presence in the far North thousands of years ago. It has miraculously survived for dozens of centuries, perhaps as the Pyramids did, remaining intact throught the vicissitudes of human history."

"By bearing in mind the meaning of "the Sun God's cattle", whose slaughter brought a dreadful fate to Ulysses's companions, we note that the rustling of fifty head of Apollo's cattle carried out by Hermes, very likely hints at the removal of the lost days in the solstice darkness. ......."

For your perusal and enjoyment...

[This message has been edited by rockessence (edited 07-20-2004).]

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rockessence
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posted 07-20-2004 11:16     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is the place of origin of the pagan religion/world.

Can you imagine the incredible awe they must have felt witnessing the activities of the moon and the aurora borealis...

The description of the spiral journey of Selene...WOW.

Also, when the North Pole was at Hel and the Earth was perpendicular to the Sun, and the temperatures were always warm there, The Sun itself made a circular journey as the Earth turned. That is why the Sun is described as a ring from earliest times. Astrology shows it as a ring with a dot in the center...perhaps the circle path around the pole?

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rockessence
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posted 07-22-2004 19:48     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Who was it asking about insects?

Here is an interesting bit from HOMER IN THE BALTIC:

"Incidentally, the discovery (or rather the rediscovery) of an important modern scientific concept has been made possible by the ILIAD. In the 17th century, it was still believed that maggots were generated spontaneously during the process of putrifaction, until the Italian doctor and poet Francesco Redi in 1668 published his work EXPERIENCES ON INSECT GENERATION, reporting experimental proof that flies eggs produce putrifaction, not vice versa. Redi himself admitted that this idea came to him after he had read a passage in the ILIAD, where Achilles is worried that the flies will cause Patrochlus' corpse to decompose: "I am very afraid/ that flies may penetrate Menoetius's strong son/ through the wounds the bronze opened/ and bear worms, which should deface his corpse,/ thus his flesh should rot, as his life was extinguished./ Silver-footed Thetis replied:/ Son, do not worry about this:/ I will try to repell that wild race,/ the flies, which feed on the men killed in battle./ Even if it lies a whole year/ his corpse will keep intact"

In other words, Homer was acquainted with a scientific truth mankind later forgot, This can be linked to a Northern location, where decomposition occurs only in summer, when flies appear(therefore, it is possible to produce dried fish there, processing it in winter). This climatic factor explains why the ancient Achaeans realized what was the cause of this phenomonen, which, on the contrary, occurs all the time in the Mediterranean."

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rockessence
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posted 07-23-2004 10:05     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Quoting Essan fron the Pangaea thread:

"In coming up with a new theory you have to a) demonstrate the short-comings of the old theory and b) demonstrate that your new theory better matches all the evidence."

[This message has been edited by rockessence (edited 07-23-2004).]

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Absonite
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posted 07-23-2004 23:17     Click Here to See the Profile for Absonite     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rock,
from your post on 7/20 I noticed something interesting.........
"Also, when the North Pole was at Hel and the Earth was perpendicular to the Sun, and the temperatures were always warm there, The Sun itself made a circular journey as the Earth turned. That is why the Sun is described as a ring from earliest times. Astrology shows it as a ring with a dot in the center...perhaps the circle path around the pole?"


from Urantia......

"The Lucifer emblem was a banner of white with one red circle, in the center of which a black solid circle appeared."
http://www.urantia.com/cgi-bin/webglimpse/mfs/usr/local/www/data/papers?link=http://mercy.urantia.org/papers/paper53.html&file=/usr/local/www/data/papers/paper53.html&line=91#mfs


"But the horse was the evolutionary factor which determined the dominance of the Andites in the Occident. The horse gave the dispersing Andites the hitherto nonexistent advantage of mobility, enabling the last groups of Andite cavalrymen to progress quickly around the Caspian Sea to overrun all of Europe. All previous waves of Andites had moved so slowly that they tended to disintegrate at any great distance from Mesopotamia. But these later waves moved so rapidly that they reached Europe as coherent groups, still retaining some measure of higher culture.

The whole inhabited world, outside of China and the Euphrates region, had made very limited cultural progress for ten thousand years when the hard-riding Andite horsemen made their appearance in the sixth and seventh millenniums before Christ. As they moved westward across the Russian plains, absorbing the best of the blue man and exterminating the worst, they became blended into one people. These were the ancestors of the so-called Nordic races, the forefathers of the Scandinavian, German, and Anglo-Saxon peoples.

It was not long before the superior blue strains had been fully absorbed by the Andites throughout all northern Europe. Only in Lapland (and to a certain extent in Brittany) did the older Andonites retain even a semblance of identity."
http://www.urantia.com/cgi-bin/webglimpse/mfs/usr/local/www/data/papers?link=http://mercy.urantia.org/papers/paper80.html&file=/usr/local/www/data/papers/paper80.html&line=84#mfs

"Although the European blue man did not of himself achieve a great cultural civilization, he did supply the biologic foundation which, when its Adamized strains were blended with the later Andite invaders, produced one of the most potent stocks for the attainment of aggressive civilization ever to appear on Urantia since the times of the violet race and their Andite successors.

The modern white peoples incorporate the surviving strains of the Adamic stock which became admixed with the Sangik races, some red and yellow but more especially the blue. There is a considerable percentage of the original Andonite stock in all the white races and still more of the early Nodite strains.

1. THE ADAMITES ENTER EUROPE

Before the last Andites were driven out of the Euphrates valley, many of their brethren had entered Europe as adventurers, teachers, traders, and warriors. During the earlier days of the violet race the Mediterranean trough was protected by the Gibraltar isthmus and the Sicilian land bridge. Some of man's very early maritime commerce was established on these inland lakes, where blue men from the north and the Saharans from the south met Nodites and Adamites from the east."
http://mercy.urantia.org/papers/paper80.html

Rock, you should read this paper 80 and 77 and understand who the Nodites were and then you will understand the connection with the tale of Homer and the Pagan teachings.

""The Nephilim (Nodites) were on earth in those days, and when these sons of the gods went in to the daughters of men and they bore to them, their children were the `mighty men of old,' the `men of renown.'" While hardly "sons of the gods," the staff and their early descendants were so regarded by the evolutionary mortals of those distant days; even their stature came to be magnified by tradition. This, then, is the origin of the well-nigh universal folk tale of the gods who came down to earth and there with the daughters of men begot an ancient race of heroes. And all this legend became further confused with the race mixtures of the later appearing Adamites in the second garden."
http://mercy.urantia.org/papers/paper77.html#2.%20THE%20NODITE%20RACE

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rockessence
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posted 07-27-2004 21:11     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Absonite,
Thanks for the tip... by the way I started a new thread "Eden at the North Pole".

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rockessence
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posted 07-31-2004 01:44     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Paraphrasing from HOMER IN THE BALTIC:

Agamemnon of the house of Atreus....Brother in law of Menelaeas. One interesting point discussed in HOMER IN THE BALTIC is the question of why, really, would the whole world go to war over the theft of a woman? Homer repeatedly insists that this is the sole reason for the war.
The fact that Menelaeas, the injured party, is really a relatively minor character in in the story, seems to reveal that this is a true history.

Anyway, Helen and Clytemnestra are sisters, the daughters of powerful Tyndareus. The abduction of Helen could have been a private matter, or could it have jeopardized Menelaus' claim to the throne of Sparta, which had been vested in him as a result of his marriage to Helen, causing a "constitutional crisis" in his (or rather HER) kingdom. This is the real reason for the war: the Achaean kings intended to regain the beautiful queen, not for her beauty, but because she was a queen, in order to restore to Menelaus his rights to the throne of Sparta(and, above all, to preclude a dangerous precedent). In particular, it is clear why Agamemnon, Menelaus' brother invested so much in the success of the expedition: he had become king of Mycenae thanks to his marriage to Tyndareus' eldest daughter. What they have the loss of is "geras", also possessed by Ulysses by virtue of his marriage to Penelope. "Geras" is status, privilege, and royal honors of sovereignty, and the right of bequeathing that sovereignty to ones descendants. This is what Paris stole along with the body of Helen. This is a huge public offence against a king, and a death blow to the status of his succeeding generations.

Homers "Catalogue of Ships" is one of the most importantant parts of the Iliad. Because of the usual manner in which sequences are given in that period, i.e. "anti-clockwise" it is possible to extrapolate the "sequence of the Achaean peoples along the Baltic coast, as the succession of the Peloponnese and the islands next to Ithaca (which we identified before by following the clues of the Odyssey)shows. In this grand review, which covers 266 lines of verse, Homer mentions the captains of the ships and the ships, the number of ships in every fleet and their respective provenances. The sequence is not hiererarchical; for example, the commander-in-chief, Agamemnon, who"was the most emminent, he led a great many troops", is the ninth. On the contrary, the sequence follows the position of peoples along the Baltic coasts. Actually, given the number of fleets (that is peoples) in the list, the sequence allows the listeners to easily follow the the relative geographic positions of the different regions, by mentally visualizing them as they are mentioned."

[This message has been edited by rockessence (edited 12-11-2004).]

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rockessence
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posted 08-04-2004 19:42     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here are some comments from American scholars:

"Homer in the Baltic is a rare example of a work that turns received notions upside-down. Vinci has done so with such thoroughness that, if one only credits half his examples, one is compelled to accept his thesis" (Joscelyn Godwin, Colgate University)

"This book poses so many intelligent and pertinent questions and offers so many brilliant solutions to various problems contained in the Homeric epic that it would truly be a pity if it passed unnoticed" (Leszek Wysocki, McGill University);

"Your essay presents a remarkably compelling thesis which is very well researched and documented (...) Your thesis is, to say the least, both fascinating and revolutionary in terms of accepted lore" (Thomas Wyman, Stanford University);

"Felice Vinci has done what was considered an almost impossibility. He has opened up a new front in the battle lines of the Homeric question (...) After reading Vinci's Homer in the Baltic, one is irresistably tempted to say "yes" to the origins of the Greek peoples in Scandinavia" (Victor DeMattei, an United States historian and scholar specializing in Balkan civilization and culture);

"I find it powerful, methodical, important, and convincing" (Alfred de Grazia, Princeton).


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rockessence
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posted 08-06-2004 11:20     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As regards to Crete, Naxos, Egypt and Pharos:
"As regards Crete, the «vast land» with «a hundred cities» and many rivers, which is NEVER REFERRED TO AS AN ISLAND by Homer, it corresponds to the Pomeranian region in the southern Baltic area, which stretches from the German coast to the Polish same. This explains why in the rich pictorial productions of the Minoan civilization, which flourished in Aegean Crete, we find no hint of Greek mythology, and ships are so scantily represented. It would also be tempting to assume a relationship between the name «Polska» and the Pelasgians, the inhabitants of Homeric Crete. At this point, it is also easy to identify Naxos (where Theseus left Ariadne on his return journey from «Crete» to «Athens») with the island of Bornholm, situated between Poland and Sweden, where the town of Neksø still recalls the ancient name of the island.

Likewise, we discover that the Odyssey's «River Egypt» probably coincides with the present-day Vistula, thus revealing the real origin of the name the Greeks gave to Pharaohs' land, known as «Kem» in the local language. This explains the incongruous position of the Homeric Egyptian Thebes, which, according to the Odyssey, is located near the sea. Evidently the Egyptian capital, which on the contrary lies hundreds of kilometres from the Nile delta and was originally known as Wò'se, was renamed by the Achaeans with the name of a Baltic city, after they moved down to the Mediterranean. The real Thebes probably was the present-day Tczew, on the Vistula delta. To the north of the latter, in the centre of the Baltic Sea, the island of Fårö recalls the Homeric Pharos, which according to the Odyssey lay in the middle of the sea at a day's sail from «Egypt» (whereas Mediterranean Pharos is not even a mile's distance from the port of Alexandria). Here is the solution to another puzzle of Homeric geography that so perturbed Strabo."

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rockessence
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posted 08-06-2004 11:26     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"And then, what of the Peloponnese, described in both poems as a plain?

In other words, Homeric geography refers to a context with a toponymy with which we are familiar, but which, if compared with the actual physical layout of the Greek world, reveals glaring anomalies, which are hard to explain, if only on account of their consistency throughout the two poems. For example, the "strange" Peloponnese appears to be a plain not sporadically but regularly, and Duli****m, the "Long Island" (in Greek "dolichos" means "long") located by Ithaca, is repeatedly mentioned not only in the Odyssey but also in the Iliad, but was never discovered in the Mediterranean. Thus we are confronted with a world which appears actually closed and inaccessible, apart from some occasional convergences, although the names are familiar (this, however, tends to be more misleading than otherwise in solving the problem).

A possible key to finally penetrating this puzzling world is provided by Plutarch (46 - 120 A.D.). In his work De facie quae in orbe lunae apparet ("The face that appears in the moon circle"), he makes a surprising statement: the island of Ogygia, (where Calypso held Ulysses before allowing him to return to Ithaca) is located in the North Atlantic Ocean, "five days' sail from Britain".

Plutarch's indications lead us to identify Ogygia with one of the Faroe Islands (where we also come across an island with a Greek-sounding name: Mykines)"

"Moreover, the Elis, i.e. one of the regions of the Peloponnese, is described as facing Duli****m, thus is easily identifiable with a part of the large Danish island of Zealand. Therefore, the latter is the original «Peloponnese», i.e. the "Island of Pelops", in the real meaning of the word "island" ("nêsos" in Greek). On the other hand, the Greek Peloponnese (which lies in a similar position in the Aegean Sea, i.e. on its southwestern side) is not an island, despite its name. Furthermore, the details reported in the Odyssey regarding both Telemachus's swift journey by chariot from Pylos to Lacedaemon, along «a wheat-producing plain», and the war between Pylians and Epeans, as narrated in Book XI of the Iliad, have always been considered inconsistent with Greece's uneven geography, while they fit in perfectly with the flat island of Zealand."


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rockessence
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posted 08-23-2004 10:02     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rajesh,
I hope you get a look at this thread, concerning the pre-historic origin of Athens.

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atalante
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posted 08-23-2004 12:49     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
rock,
The "long island" in your recent post sounds intriguing, but I cannot read the true spelling of its name.

quote:
Elis, i.e. one of the regions of the Peloponnese, is described as facing Duli****m

What is the correct spelling for Duli****m?

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rockessence
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posted 08-23-2004 21:54     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

D U L I C H I U M ! ! !

[This message has been edited by rockessence (edited 08-26-2004).]

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rockessence
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posted 08-26-2004 21:11     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why does that happen??
Atalante, There is some good info on BOCK SAGA/ALT LAND IS.

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rockessence
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posted 09-14-2004 10:12     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Many signs prove the antiquity of the two poems (Iliad and Odyssey)and their temporal incongruity with Greek culture (this also explains why any reliable information regarding the author, or authors, of the poems had been lost before classical times), showing that they in fact belong to a "barbaric" European civilization, very far from the Aegean, as has been noticed by authoritative scholars, such as Prof. Stuart Piggott in his Ancient Europe. Moreover, Radiocarbon dating, corrected with dendrochronology (i.e. tree-ring calibration) has recently questioned the dogma of the Eastern origin of European civilization. Prof. Colin Renfrew describes the consequences for traditional chronology:
«These changes bring with them a whole series of alarming reversals in chronological relationships. The megalithic tombs of western Europe now become older than the Pyramids or the round tombs of Crete, their supposed predecessors. The early metal-using cultures of the Balkans antedate Troy and the early bronze age Aegean, from which they were supposedly derived. And in Britain, the final structure of Stonehenge, once thought to be the inspiration of Mycenaean architectural expertise, was complete well before the Mycenaean civilization began» (Before civilization, the radiocarbon revolution and prehistoric Europe, chap. 4, "The Tree-ring Calibration of Radiocarbon").

Consequently, Prof. Renfrew goes so far as to say:

«The whole carefully constructed edifice comes crashing down, and the story-line of the standard textbooks must be discarded» (Before civilization, chap. 5, "The Collapse of the Traditional Framework").

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atalante
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posted 09-14-2004 22:35     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
rockessence,

I admire the passion you have for the Bock Saga, and the skill which you use in organizing its material.

But I expect that Collin Renfrew has never advocated the Bock Saga.

I think the quote you gave from Renfrew was from a book about 10 or 20 years ago. Renfrew's name has been associated with dating Stonehenge, Silbury Hill, and a few other megalithic structures at an age around 2500-2700 BC, and therefore slightly older than most of the pyramids of Egypt.

The most common dates assigned to the Trojan War are around 1190 BC.

[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 09-14-2004).]

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rockessence
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posted 09-15-2004 10:38     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Atalante,

Nor had Felice Vinci heard of the Bock saga when he wrote HOMER IN THE BALTIC, which contains the excerpt above. Sorry that I forgot the quote marks.

I only mean to say that: Regarding the Bock saga material, scholars are indepentantly showing that there is reason to believe that the case for Ior Bock's assertions concerning history may be more well-founded than past scholarship allows for.

I suggest that Felice Vince has proven that the old date and LOCATION agreed on for Troy are no longer valid.

[This message has been edited by rockessence (edited 09-15-2004).]

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Boreas
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posted 09-18-2004 18:16     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just as prof. Renfrew - and some of his contemporaries - have proven that the (old) general opinion about the civilization of Northern Eurasia, - and its cultural development thoughout history - is no longer valid...

Moreover, - the works of Vinci, Renfrew, Heyerdahl and a growing number of younger researchers is actually substantiating and even proving the surprising outlines of the mentioned saga-material. So what - now what?!

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rockessence
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posted 09-18-2004 21:26     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Atalante,

You give me credit where it is not due. I am merely pasting in the hard work of others. I AM passionate about trying to share this facinating material, though.

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atalante
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posted 09-22-2004 05:34     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
rock,
What chronology would replace a date ca 1190 BC for the Trojan War?

Does Homer in the Baltic give chronology?

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rockessence
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posted 09-22-2004 11:15     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
sangmele,

Thanks so much for this link. I will really enjoy delving into it!

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Boreas
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posted 09-24-2004 18:52     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In 2002 the National Archaologists of Sweden concluded their excavation of a complete city, measuring 1,8 x 1,0 km, excavated outside Hernosand in the very north of Sweden, by the Botnic Bay. The city was established 4.800 years BP, - doing regular trade with Finland and Carelia - as well as Russia, Poland, Germany and Denmark. Though; the reason for this establishment was the unique location by the big inland river-system, allowing for a safe and steady water-way passage, crossing the lowest point on the Scandinavian Mountain-ridge. This "short-cut" connecting the whole Baltic Ocean directly to the area of Trondelag, being the central area for the trade-culture that populated the shores of the North Atlantic, from neolittic times - rigth untill the midle-ages.

The old culture ("Kven-culture") and river-trade of the Northern hemisphere recessed permanently around the 1350-ties as a climatical catastrophe ("small ice-time") - helped by diseases - extinguished about 3/4 of the Fenno-Scandinavian population. The later, restored trading-culture of the north ("Birkarla-culture") obviously chose a lower location when their trading with the west-coast Scandinavia was re-established.

Not before the discovery of the 4.800 year old city - of trade and industrial production - at "Bjastamon" outside Hernosand, did ANYONE have a clue that there was cities existing in the Baltics - 1.300 years BEFORE Rome and Athens (!?!). There was even solid evidences of a large-scale, commercial home-production - as well as numberless items proving trade with distant countries...

This "incredible" discovery is only ONE of many that today is shedding a completly new light on the history of the Baltics. Especially if we are able to understand the impact of the discovery that Fenno-Scandia -that today is seen only as a penninsula - used to be an island - in the Atlantic Ocean - at the size of todays Greenland.

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rockessence
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posted 09-24-2004 22:32     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Boreas,

I have searched on google for Bjastamon but cannot find any pages in English. sounds really amazing. It would be great to hear more!

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Boreas
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posted 09-25-2004 19:32     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry, but you have to trust me on this one. All I can get from the Swedish State Archaeologist - SO FAR - is only in Swedish. The only good presentation have been made by Swedish TV1, the national broadcast, that presented the site and its documentation over a 30 min. long program, in the late autum 2002.

The last question of the program was directed to the Rigth Honorable Mr. Evert Boudou, senior professor of Scandinavian Archaology at the University of Umea - asking; "What was the biggest surprise of all these findings?"
Boudou answered; "The incredibly well planned and highly organised functions of the city (at large). There is simply no way that this city could have been built so highly specialized and effectively structured - without a VERY THOROUGH and COMPLETE CITY-PLANNING, PRIOR to the building-process". That started more than 4.800 years ago. (My translation and commnent).

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atalante
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posted 09-27-2004 11:55     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I may have found that story on the internet, about an archaeological site in Bjastamon.

But I can't read the words.
http://www.botniabanan.se/upload/pdf/projekttidningen/nr_7/tidning_nr7_sid4-7.pdf

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Perseus
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posted 09-27-2004 14:35     Click Here to See the Profile for Perseus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sangmele,
Greeks would never change Homer's Epics ,few try to do it in Athens during Pesistratous(they tried to make Athens look more powerful during Trojan War ) and they executed.....

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cleasterwood
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posted 11-24-2004 15:02     Click Here to See the Profile for cleasterwood     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rock,
All I can say right now is WOW. That's a lot of info to review, *swipes sweat from forehead after reading it*. It does seem to fill in some holes in the Geography of the Greek world. The research is thorough and concise which may bring us closer to finding the answers we seek. Great work gathering it into one place.

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rockessence
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From: WA USA
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posted 11-25-2004 03:22     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
C.L.
It would behoove the serious student to absorb this material as it seems to explain sources that even Plato and Critias got a pale version of.

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rockessence
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posted 01-20-2005 11:00     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There are too many holes in the "so-called accepted version of Troy" that are logically addressed by Vinci's HOMER IN THE BALTIC. The summary of the book is the major part of this thread.

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rockessence
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posted 03-05-2005 11:12     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just discovered that Vinci's book is just being published in English! http://www.innertraditions.com/isbn/1-59477-052-2

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